Harsh Thakkar (00:01.23)
All right, welcome to another episode of Life Sciences 360. Today I have my guest here, Joel Eichmann. He is the co -founder, he is the managing director of Green Elephant Biotech. And if you haven't heard about Green Elephant Biotech, it's a very unique company. They're doing a lot of amazing, they have a lot of amazing products and they're huge on sustainability and using plant -based materials.

So I'm really looking forward to having this conversation with Joel and welcome him to the show, Joel.

Joel (00:36.72)
Yeah, thank you for the invitation.

Harsh Thakkar (00:39.502)
I want to ask you, I have not seen or interviewed any company on this podcast that not just talks about sustainability, but has a product that's 100 % devoted to that direction. So how did you come about the idea of, what was the initial stages thought process when you were thinking of this company, Green Elephant Biotech?

Joel (01:05.616)
So this might be a bit surprising for you, but the original idea was not to make sustainable consumables for life settings and bioprocessing. Actually, we came up with a geometry for a novel kind of cell culture flask, and the geometry was so complicated, we could only make it in 3D printing. And then we started screening all materials that were available at

Harsh Thakkar (01:25.166)
Hmm.

Joel (01:35.024)
this time for 3D printing from all 3D printing techniques that claim to be biocompatible. I was like the basic because the product is for bioprocessing equipment and it needs to meet some regulatory compliance. In the end, we found PLA to be really suitable because it has been used in the METECH field for more than a decade now. There is...

Harsh Thakkar (01:42.958)
Hmm.

Joel (02:03.728)
yeah, medical grade raw materials, so easier for us. So because we don't have to go to the very bottom to all the qualification of the materials. And the material was PLA. PLA is very suitable also for cell culture applications because a lot of cell lines attach and grow on PLA even without a TC treatment. But it's also known for rapid prototyping for

Harsh Thakkar (02:26.158)
Hmm.

Joel (02:32.368)
Yeah, 3D printing, it's a very common 3D printing material and it's entirely made from plant based or from plants. So PLA is polylactic acid. It's made from fermentation of corn starch or any starchy or sugar material. And the lactic acid is then polymerized to a thermoplast that can be used in injection molding, but also in 3D printing.

Harsh Thakkar (03:01.358)
Hmm.

Joel (03:01.648)
And that was like the beginning of Green Elephant when we found out we do not only have technical USPs, but also in terms of, yeah, in terms of sustainability. And we thought, okay, the one product is the bioprocessing, but we could do other products for labs that are replacing one -on -one like the 96 well played.

so that's, that's not, not really the story you would expect when you see our company website, but I think we're scientists. We, we can tell how, how the story really went and it doesn't change anything about the products. They are way more sustainable than anything else on the market. And yeah, it has been in our DNA from the first day.

Harsh Thakkar (03:54.734)
Yes. Yeah.

No, that's great to hear. And also just for the listeners, if you enjoy these type of conversations, we're going to go much into detail and ask Joel some other interesting questions about the product. But if you love these type of conversations, if you love listening to other startups and other executives and other companies in the life sciences area, with technology, we have the access to people pretty much everywhere in the world. Joel here is from Germany joining us. So.

Yeah, just like us and support us on Apple or Spotify or, you know, YouTube so that we can bring you more guests like Joel and understand how they're building, you know, innovative companies like Green Elephant. So you talked about PLA and you were explaining sort of the idea. So then how did you take that?

experimental or let's say the idea that you had, okay, we could make something out of this and that would be 100 % plan -based. How did you take that sort of from concept to making it a commercial product? What extra stuff did you have to do or your team have to do?

Joel (05:15.14)
So our first product was the cell culture flask. We call it the cell screw. For people that are not really familiar with industrial scale manufacturing of adherent cells like stem cells, IPS, MSCs, they grow on a single layer and they only grow on surfaces that some kind of mimic the tissue or any kind of, yeah. So the surface usually has some kind of TC treatment.

that makes the cell attach. Because of the difficult geometry of this flask, we had to make it in 3D printing and still make it in 3D printing and we will always make it in 3D printing because it doesn't make sense to make it in any other manufacturing technology. 3D printing, a bioprocessing equipment part, is really tough. You need to meet regulatory compliance, but also...

Yeah, it was like the first product we ever heard about that needs to be leak -tight in terms of keeping any contamination out and keeping all the fluids in. And if you look at the conditions in an incubator, you have 37 degrees, you have strong humidity, you have a certain amount of carbon dioxide in the incubator atmosphere.

Harsh Thakkar (06:21.806)
Mm.

Joel (06:44.048)
This is pretty tough to reach a 3D printed part to be completely leak -tight for days and weeks. So I think in technical terms, that was the most difficult part the team had to deliver.

Harsh Thakkar (07:04.622)
And what were, as you were testing that and making sure that the product could meet all those regulatory requirements or have sort of the lead diet and all of the extra stuff, are there any challenges that you encountered and what decisions did you make about the product or your strategy to overcome those challenges? If you can think of any examples.

Joel (07:30.264)
So one thing was in the early days we thought we would give the manufacturing to a OEM instead of making it in -house But again because no one has ever made some kind of this kind of product in 3d printing After a few months we were setting up a pilot facility to manufacture it in in -house

Harsh Thakkar (07:40.206)
Hmm.

Joel (07:59.888)
to really learn more about the process, to validate the process. That was one of the challenges and one of the approaches we had to really learn about the product and the production of the part. The other thing was a company was founded during the pandemic and before we started the company, I've been working at a vaccine company.

Harsh Thakkar (08:23.214)
Hmm.

Joel (08:29.008)
I think everyone during the pandemic had issues with supply chains. So from the first day we set up our supply chain completely based in Europe, having short ways, not any container shipings. And I think this is helpful until today because we're really able to react quickly to any changes in the supply chain.

Harsh Thakkar (08:56.206)
Yeah, it is really interesting to hear. A lot of people during COVID had maybe some time off from their work or maybe they were just remote and they were at their home or wherever, the place of wherever they're living and they probably had tons of ideas and you're not the first person to mention that you.

I had the idea or started the company around that timeframe. I've heard that from many other people. So that's really good for the entire community. Cause I know a lot of people started their different ventures in during COVID time. If you are thinking back then, so whether it's in your early days of starting Green Elephant Biotech or before that, when you were in your role at vaccines at GSK, I believe, right? What...

Joel (09:50.224)
Yes.

Harsh Thakkar (09:51.886)
Do you think of any advice today where you are that you would give to the Joel three or four years ago?

Joel (10:02.64)
there's quite a few and most of them I wouldn't talk about in a public podcast. Let's see.

Harsh Thakkar (10:07.47)
you

Joel (10:15.376)
I think...

Joel (10:20.048)
So maybe we didn't want to be that kind of German company that is doing everything to perfection before going to the market. And maybe we did it a bit too quickly. Maybe we launched the product a bit too quickly. And I think waiting a few more months, doing a bit more of perfection could have been one of the things. But I think this is two years from now.

Harsh Thakkar (10:30.798)
Okay.

Harsh Thakkar (10:39.79)
Okay.

Joel (10:49.264)
and all these early days, wasn't even early days, or it was not that the product was imperfect or not usable before we shipped it, but we launched it and started selling it before it was actually ready to be shipped and sold. So I think the first customer waited for about half a year and that's pretty uncool. I think I wouldn't do that again.

Harsh Thakkar (11:09.134)
Hmm.

Harsh Thakkar (11:14.542)
Okay.

Harsh Thakkar (11:19.022)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's pros and cons to both, right? Like it shows you that maybe that customer did believe in your concept and the mission that your company was supporting. And you were also fortunate that maybe there weren't other players who were offering the same thing or thinking along the same line. So I'm sure that...

from, you could look at it in a positive way and say that, you know, that customer really believed in you and they said, yeah, we'll wait six months. But also you could maybe be critical and say, we should have waited before going to market, yeah.

Joel (12:03.632)
Yeah, I agree. Yes, still as a young company, you always want to verify the product market fit. You want to get the first real world customer data in. So it makes sense to start selling quickly. But maybe then you should be more transparent about what's the stage of the development or the stage of the product. Maybe that's the way to go.

Harsh Thakkar (12:14.094)
Mm -hmm.

Harsh Thakkar (12:33.966)
Yep, yep. Yeah, and I know that you're, it's obvious and it's extremely obvious that you and your company are a big believer in sustainability. You have the phrase on your company's LinkedIn that says, spread the word to make biotech more sustainable. So going into sustainability, what are some of the ways that,

your company is incorporating sustainability into, whether your operations or a business model, do you have some thoughts to share?

Joel (13:12.24)
Sure. I think the biggest part is the products themselves. And if you look at what companies are usually having in carbon emissions in scope one, two and three, scope three is usually the biggest issue or the one that is not really mentioned in the sustainability report. So all our products are more sustainable.

than the gold standard that is on the market, ranging from between carbon emission or carbon footprint reduction from 50 % to up to 90%. And I think that's the biggest part, selling products that are more sustainable than anything that is on the market. And on the other hand, we have like all the packaging is from recycled material, except for primary packaging. We have a short,

towards shipping ways because the supply chain is completely based in Europe. The energy we use to make our products is from renewable energies. But to be doing a life cycle assessment on the products, there's only playing a small part. Manufacturing and shipping is not the biggest part. The biggest part is sourcing the raw materials and disposal of single -use equipment.

And in both cases, our products are more sustainable than what is on the market.

Harsh Thakkar (14:43.214)
And how did you, when you were hiring your initial team of five or 10 people, I don't know how many employees you have today at Green Elephant. How many?

Joel (14:57.392)
It's.

Ten at the moment, so two founders and ten employees.

Harsh Thakkar (15:01.614)
10. Okay, so yeah, so that's still pretty small. And how did you go about hiring these 10 people? Like, were you trying to, like, was there any criteria that you were looking at when you were bringing these people to say, okay, are they, you know, do they have any prior experience with these manufacturing process or products? And because you're trying to build a company that,

doesn't exist or there's not too many other like for like companies. So how did you go about evaluating who to bring on to your company?

Joel (15:41.636)
So first you hire people, not machines. So I think the one is we hired people that really believed in the mission or the missions and the products either on the bioprocessing side or the sustainability side or best case, best case both. And I think this was the most important we have.

Harsh Thakkar (15:48.622)
Hmm.

Joel (16:09.904)
I think most of our employees came straight from university, having a biotech background. And this, I think, is a good thing for a startup. You need some people in key positions that bring some industry knowledge or some really deep technical knowledge. But for most of the people in such a new field, you don't want people...

Harsh Thakkar (16:14.158)
Hmm.

Joel (16:36.592)
that have been working in a corporate for 10 or 15 years because it's difficult for them to go completely new ways. So that's why we hired people straight from university.

Harsh Thakkar (16:46.574)
Hmm.

Harsh Thakkar (16:52.206)
Yeah, that's really smart because I don't know much about the scientific side of what happens in university, because I went into a technology advanced degree. But just when you're coming out of the university, you are very open -minded, you're very flexible, you're very adaptable, you are really...

let's say thirsty and hungry just for learning and getting good opportunities. So I think it was really a great decision on your part to, you know, maybe you, I'm sure you must have gotten advice from executives who have been around for 10, 15 years, but when you actually had to build your team, you chose, you know, university talent that was like maybe committed to coming in and applying what they learned in the university.

to a company like yours.

Joel (17:53.104)
Yes. And I think the employees, they really appreciated having the opportunity to take on a lot of responsibility in a way that they would have not been able to get in a corporate within a few years.

Harsh Thakkar (18:02.19)
Hmm.

Harsh Thakkar (18:10.03)
And how did they cope up understanding the life science industry and the clients? Because if they were in the university, maybe they had some, like did they already know how life science manufacturing or cell therapy manufacturing works or did you have to give them additional training to say, hey, these are our clients, this is how we should approach them?

Joel (18:37.904)
Yes, this is where we really had to coach the staff that didn't have any industry experience. The good thing is, so in the city where we founded the company, we have a very strong bioprocessing institute that is doing a lot of corporations with corporates and biotech companies. So at least some of our staff, even in university, got that industry insight and learned how the industry works.

Harsh Thakkar (18:44.014)
Hmm.

Joel (19:07.12)
But still, that's where my experience and my co -founder's experience came in, but also external advisors and some of our investors that really know how the industry works, where, yeah, teaching our stuff and getting a good strategy going.

Harsh Thakkar (19:24.534)
Yeah, it's interesting that not many people would go that road, right? Because I know a lot of people would hire talent that already has industry experience, but for you to be able to go that road and also invest in their training and...

sort of believing that yes, that's gonna work out for the success of your company, that's really good on you as a leader. So I'm glad they appreciate that you invested in them and believed in them. So that's really great.

Harsh Thakkar (20:11.982)
How do you, so you obviously have other product ideas in, you know, maybe for the future and looking at the industry because you are sort of juggling two things. Maybe you're trying to innovate other products that are also plant -based or that have the same features that are unlike other available in the market, but at the same time,

you are also managing the need for being sustainable. So how do you sort of juggle both? Because you know what I mean, like there's other companies that are offering products that are not like yours, but you have to go through the extra hoops to make yours as good as theirs. So how do you go about with that and still being in line with your mission?

Joel (21:11.984)
I'm not sure if I, if I got that, that question right, maybe can repeat it or say it in another way. If that's okay for you. Sorry.

Harsh Thakkar (21:19.822)
Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So what I was trying to ask is how do you sort of balance the demands of being innovative in biotech and bringing new products to add onto your line of products, but also staying true to your mission of environmental sustainability and stuff like that. How do you balance both of those?

Joel (21:51.632)
I think that's actually pretty easy. So again, we have these two product lines, the one where we make existing products like to like just from any other material that is more sustainable. Here we just, or here we make to make sure that applications can be transferred like to like from the one consumable to the other consumable. For example, for the 96 world plate, a Lysa in our plate needs to work as good.

SNA plate made from polystyrene. That's the one thing. On our product line in the bioprocessing, where we are developing completely new products, it's even easier because we have all the freedom on product design, on manufacturing design. So we have...

Harsh Thakkar (22:23.758)
Mm.

Joel (22:46.64)
Here the possibility, for example, to make things more compact than they have been in the past or in the gold standard today. So we can have additional material savings, which gives us additional environmental impact because then we not only have the benefits from the plant -based plastics, but also from the savings in the raw material and in the plastic waste.

Harsh Thakkar (23:17.326)
Yeah, that's really good. And that kind of answered my question. I also wanted to ask you, when you look outside your outside green elephant biotech, just in the industry, what are, so I'm sure there's maybe other biotech startups or founders who have ideas of.

building products that are plant -based or sustainable in the entire life sciences ecosystem. So can you maybe comment on some of the challenges and opportunities in the industry for other types of innovative products? Have you seen anything just by interacting with other founders or going to conferences?

Joel (24:05.488)
Yeah, sure. There's quite some approaches. The biggest part we see is, so for everything that is consumable or disposable, so starting from pipette tips, so all the laboratory plastics, and there's basically two ways. Either you recycle the material or you change the material. We choose the way to change the material from a crude oil.

Harsh Thakkar (24:22.702)
Hmm.

Joel (24:34.544)
based material to a plant based material. There are some approaches doing recycling, which is, I believe, pretty tough because you don't know or you have to set up the whole recycling infrastructure to make sure things are in the quality you really need it. And then I have not seen any product that is made from 100 % recycled plastics. There's always some native resin that is.

Harsh Thakkar (24:54.734)
Hmm.

Joel (25:04.048)
that is added. We also see the approach of making plastics or conventional plastics from secondary feedstocks. So like from used cooking oil. I think this is a great approach if it's done properly. So if it's not only based on mass balance, but if the material that goes into a product is really made.

Harsh Thakkar (25:19.47)
Mm.

Joel (25:34.192)
from the plant -based feedstock. There are some calculation -based opportunities that make it easy, but yeah, in the end, the product is only more sustainable on the balance or on the paper, but not in the real world. And then one last thing is we see some approaches.

Harsh Thakkar (25:36.782)
Hmm.

Joel (26:00.88)
not for the plastics, but for example for the X -Culture media, which I really like just making powders that then can be dissolved so you can ship it at room temperature. You have not the weight of the water for the shipping, you have not the volume of the water, so shipping becomes way more sustainable, which I think is a great approach as well.

Harsh Thakkar (26:28.974)
Yes, yeah, and it's, yeah, I can't even, I know you mentioned making it from cooking oil or, you know, it just sounds interesting how there's a couple of different approaches like the recyclable and also using completely a new product to make these materials. So that's really interesting. What is,

when you think of the future like for your company and maybe coming up with new product ideas, you mentioned you have two products right now. So when you think of brainstorming new product ideas, do they usually, do they come from your existing clients? Do they come from your existing team members when they're working on a project or do they just come when you're sitting reflecting maybe on a weekend?

Can you share some ideas or how do you get new ideas to work on?

Joel (27:34.128)
First thing is we focus on the knowledge we have in a company and in a company we know a lot about cell culture and everything around cell culture. So cell culture even a little bit in automation, industrial scale and process engineering, but also cell culture plastics. So it makes sense for us to build a pipeline or a product pipeline or a product portfolio.

Harsh Thakkar (27:41.134)
Mm.

Harsh Thakkar (28:03.086)
Mm -hmm.

Joel (28:03.344)
around this knowledge before entering new markets. Also, we have a lot of cell culture customers. So it makes sense to sell the existing customers products that are new to the portfolio than starting new products that we have to look to for new customers too.

Harsh Thakkar (28:24.046)
Yep, yep, that's true. And I also, I'm not sure if I exactly recollect, but I saw that your company was awarded in German Life Science Magazine as the product of the year, is that correct? Can you share that achievement and how did you get that recognition?

Joel (28:48.896)
I think that was the Labo Award. We received it at the Analytica trade show in Munich. How did we receive it? I think it was a public vote. So I think we applied for it and we got selected as a finalist. And then it was a public vote. And all the readers of the magazine and people from the internet apparently liked our

Harsh Thakkar (29:00.366)
Yeah.

Joel (29:16.816)
product most in the sustainability category.

Harsh Thakkar (29:19.854)
That's awesome. Do you know any other products that were in there as nominated that didn't win?

Joel (29:26.032)
Sure, but I'm not going to name any other brands in this podcast.

Harsh Thakkar (29:28.11)
Okay, yeah, that's fine. Yeah, that's fine. So.

Joel (29:35.984)
But it was one of the biggest players, so we've been beating the big player.

Harsh Thakkar (29:39.246)
that's really good. So if you, I know that it must have made you really proud and excited of your team and that kind of recognition when it comes from, like you said, it was a public vote, people that just know about your company by reading online or going to different trade shows. And if, do you think that it helps like that kind of recognition?

helps you reassure that you are on the right mission or your team. Does it help your team?

Joel (30:13.072)
Sure, definitely. So, especially when a prize or an award comes from a public vote and not only from a jury, you know, there must be a lot of people out there that really support the idea behind the product or the company. I think it gives us credibility and builds trust, which is important for us as a young company on the one hand.

On the other hand, it gives us visibility. And I think, yeah, both are probably two of the most important things for startups. So building trust and getting attention.

Harsh Thakkar (30:57.454)
Yeah, those are really important, especially when you have a small team and you're trying to scale and establish a name for your company. This kind of recognition is huge. What's one long -term goal? I don't know if you wanna, I don't know what you define. Maybe let's say, let's put a number like three years or five years. What?

What is your one goal for Green Elephant Biotech if you are thinking today?

Joel (31:31.344)
Interestingly, this is from a completely different product type now we're talking about. I've been talking about the cell culture flask before, which is just a flask for growing a lot of cells. What we are currently doing is developing the thing to be completely automated because we see a big bottleneck in the industry, especially in cell and gene therapy manufacturing.

Harsh Thakkar (31:43.694)
Hmm.

Joel (31:58.384)
where we see a lot of potential in automating the cell culture manufacturing. So the goal for the next three years will be launching this product that is helping companies to really scale autologists or even allogenic cell and gene therapies.

Harsh Thakkar (32:19.15)
And how, so when you say like making it fully automated, like what kind of technologies would you need to incorporate to make it fully automated?

Joel (32:33.168)
Well, it's not rocket science. So I think the hardest part was to build this or to develop this flask that is enabling automation. From here, it's sensors, it's pumps, it's tubes, it's valves, it's heating, cooling. But in the end, it's getting cells in there, getting the environment right to grow them and then to...

Harsh Thakkar (32:46.03)
Hmm.

Joel (33:00.912)
get them off the surface and get them in any kind of collection container. So everything highly, highly trained people are doing in a clean room today that costs them hours and having this automated, yeah, it's springing down the handling time from hours to minutes. That's the goal.

Harsh Thakkar (33:06.349)
I see.

Harsh Thakkar (33:22.926)
Yes, yeah, and that's where, you know, there's a lot of work being done in that area, whether it's in manufacturing process or whether it's in other software or other types of technologies where AI is being used in many cases to reduce some of the manual work. So I think we're seeing that theme across a lot of different...

functions within life sciences where things are getting more automated and less manual. What do you think would happen? What's your take on people, right? Because some people don't, who are doing these jobs manually, they may or may not like that everything's gonna be 100 % automated. So do you feel like they're gonna have a different job after it's 100 % automated or?

What is your take? Because I've heard both sides. Some people are, yes, I love automation and others are like, I don't want 100 % automation.

Joel (34:28.6)
I think for the steps or the processing steps we're talking about here, these are highly repetitive and people I know at this level of education, they don't like repetitive work. So you don't do a PhD to do pipetting all day. So I would say this kind of automation is really necessary. Additionally,

Harsh Thakkar (34:36.206)
Hmm.

Harsh Thakkar (34:43.31)
Right.

Joel (34:57.488)
there are not even enough people to make this kind of production today. So I saw a study from the UK and they have like a 500 % worker shortage for this kind of cell gene therapy manufacturing. So they could hire five times more people, but they're just not out there. So I think that's a discussion we don't... So if someone really wants to do it manually,

Harsh Thakkar (35:18.101)
Yep.

Joel (35:26.768)
he will still find a job.

Harsh Thakkar (35:28.782)
Yeah. Listen, this is really an amazing discussion. I have enjoyed learning about your journey and how you started Green Elephant Biotech, everything that you're doing there. It's a very unique company and the products that you have are unique. At least I haven't heard anybody else or talked to anybody else in this space. Where can other listeners learn more about you?

or Green Elephant Biotech. Do you want to share your social media or website details so they can research more about your company?

Joel (36:06.512)
Yeah. So, you will find us on LinkedIn green elephant as a company or me as a person Joel Eichmann. I post on LinkedIn regularly. I actually have my own podcast, but it's in German. So if you speak German, it's the double helix podcast where I do interview with biotech CEOs and CTOs. And you will find a lot of information on a company on our website, just Google green elephant biotech. So that's, that's going to work.

Harsh Thakkar (36:34.83)
All right, before we wrap up, any final thoughts you wanna share with the listeners?

Joel (36:44.976)
Maybe one last thing on the sustainability. So we had massive floodings in Germany last week. We see the temperature rises on the sea, but also the air in a manner that we have not seen in any time in the history of Earth before. And if the pharma industry or the life science industry would be a country, it would be the fifth biggest.

emitter of carbon dioxide. So I think the industry has been hiding behind saving lives for the past decades and it's now time to really get into sustainability, get the data clear and do the things that really have the biggest impact.

Harsh Thakkar (37:33.902)
Yeah, no, that's and that's why, you know, it's really important that founders like you are building these kinds of innovative companies, sharing your journey and inspiring others to also take action towards that.

Joel (37:50.832)
Yeah, thanks for giving the opportunity to share the story.

Harsh Thakkar (37:53.838)
Yep, that's it. Thank you, Joel.

Joel (37:57.2)
Yeah, thank you, Harald.

Harsh Thakkar (37:59.758)
All right.