Harsh Thakkar (00:00)
All right. Welcome to another episode of Life Sciences 360. My guest today is Tony Martinetti, and he is one of the top leadership development voices on LinkedIn. He's an advisor to a bunch of tech and life sciences executives and leaders. He does business and executive leadership coaching. He's written a bunch of books. I'm sure I'm missing some accolades in there, but I don't want to spend too much time in the intro. Let's dive in and have a chat with Tony today. Welcome to the show, Tony.

Tony Martignetti (00:32)
Thank you so much for having me. The accolades are not necessary. We just have a good conversation, right?

Harsh Thakkar (00:38)
Yes, yes, absolutely. And talking about good conversation, I was going through your content on LinkedIn, because I like to do that just to understand what my guests are writing on LinkedIn or on their blogs and whatnot. And the one thing that jumped out to me is that you are a big advocate of inspired leadership. I think your business is also named Inspired Academy or... Yes.

Tony Martignetti (01:04)
and inspired

purpose partners.

Harsh Thakkar (01:07)
Okay, inspired purpose partners. Yeah, sorry about that. So, question I had for you is what, being an advocate of inspired leadership, what book or person had a big impact on you, or inspiration for you in your career?

Tony Martignetti (01:23)
Yeah, well, I'll do kind of do one of each. I'll start with a person, a person for me that that has inspired me a lot in my career, particularly in the life science industry is Henry Tamir. Henry Tamir was the the CEO of of Genzyme. He's passed away now quite a few years now. I think it's been at least.

Harsh Thakkar (01:26)
Yes, yes.

Hmm.

Tony Martignetti (01:53)
seven or eight years. And what was really amazing about Henry is first of all, his belief in people, he believed in people before they were ready to believe in themselves. And he gave them chances to to step up into their potential. So he was amazing. Also, he really believed in the in investing in rare diseases, which is something that at the time wasn't a big at the time when he was doing it, it wasn't as popular as it is today.

Harsh Thakkar (01:54)
Mm -hmm.

Tony Martignetti (02:23)
So he was amazing. And a book, I'll just choose a book that I'm reading recently, that I've read recently, which I really found interesting. And it was the, hold on a second.

This should be an easy one. It's called No Rules, Rules by Reed Hastings and Aaron Meyer. It's the story of Netflix approach to culture and their desire to really look at flexibility versus stringent rules and how they just hold people accountable to doing the right thing.

Harsh Thakkar (02:42)
yeah, yes.

Yep. No rules rules. Okay. I'll have to check that out. I had never heard of it, but I will add that to my reading list. So, you talked about Henry and you mentioned how he invested in people, right? So, when you're doing coaching with other leaders, whether it's in tech, whether it's in life sciences, what are some of the...

I don't want to call it mistakes because they're not really mistakes, but what are some of the missed opportunities that other leaders are not doing investing in people that you saw people like Henry have been doing really well?

Tony Martignetti (03:49)
Yeah, a lot of people who I saw doing it wrong were, you know, really choosing people based on their pedigree. You know, they are what they prove already, not based on their potential, but instead based on, you know, where they what do they already do. And I think that's a challenging way to look at people. Because if you only look at their past, their past performance, then you're leaving a lot of potential.

Harsh Thakkar (03:58)
Mmm.

Tony Martignetti (04:19)
unexplored. And I think we need to do more of that is to say, you know, where could this person be taken? How can we take an uncut diamond and make them into a diamond that could be polished and made into someone who's a real star?

Harsh Thakkar (04:29)
Hmm.

Yeah, yeah. No, that's a very important point. And I personally feel like there were many times in my career where, you know, whether it was interviewing for a role or whether it was pitching to a client when I was starting my consulting firm, I felt like I was in that boat. I felt like I was being, obviously I cannot go and recreate the past or show something that I haven't done.

But I was self -aware, I knew that I could compete or execute at the same level as others who've done it for 20 years. But yes, it is a mental, it's a challenge and it's a lot of friction that I observed where, hey, no, but you haven't shown it or I don't see this on your resume. So I don't know how to trust that you will do it, right? So, and it's always like gut wrenching to hear that. And it's like, man, like.

It comes down to that ultimately, right? So, yeah.

Tony Martignetti (05:36)
Hmm,

absolutely. I mean, and that's why, you know, one of the things I believe in now is, is really listening to people and hearing them express, you know, what are the things they most want to show the world, and allowing them the space to, to, to show that more, because ultimately, when a person doesn't bring their true gifts into the world, it's a, it's really doesn't help anyone, it doesn't help them, it doesn't help us.

And we need more of that, especially in the innovative spaces, because, you know, that person who's holding the key to the next big drug discovery is the scientist who's, you know, not being hurt.

Harsh Thakkar (06:19)
Yes, yes. And I think you're, I haven't watched your complete TED talk, but I watched some of your posts around it, but it was on this topic, right? Like don't check yourself at the door or something you had written a post around it. Do you wanna talk a little bit about what the main premise was of that TED talk?

Tony Martignetti (06:41)
I'm happy to and you know, definitely from my perspective of what that talk is about, it's really this sense of bringing ourselves into the room and expressing our full selves as it's, it's not just about, you know, the big things like, you know, making sure we express our gender or, you know, our family background or, you know, even our social economic

Harsh Thakkar (06:52)
Hmm.

Tony Martignetti (07:11)
background, some people who are afraid to share that they grew up in, maybe they grew up in, you know, homeless, or they grew up in a place where they just were poor. And they don't want people to know that because it makes them look like they've got a kink in the armor. So a lot of people show up and they hide parts of who they are, because they're afraid. They're afraid of being judged, or they're afraid of not getting opportunities. So that's what the talk's about.

Harsh Thakkar (07:31)
Mm -hmm.

Tony Martignetti (07:39)
But it's also about the people who are hiding their brilliance in other arenas. For example, I worked with a few people who have these really amazing hobbies and gifts outside of work that needed to be celebrated and not held back. I worked with a data scientist who was a violin playing virtuoso and just having her bring that into the workplace helped her feel more confident. And people around her started to see her differently.

And I think that was really a beautiful moment and it helped her to bring her full self, all of the parts of her into the work.

Harsh Thakkar (08:18)
Right, yeah, that's a great example. And then for leaders and for managers who are leading different types of teams, how can they encourage their team members to quote unquote bring their complete selves to work? Like should they be doing some team gathering events or like doing a survey, asking people about their hobbies? Like what are some actionable tips you can share?

Tony Martignetti (08:45)
Yeah, I mean, in the talk, I talked about this idea of the core model, which is, you know, based in curiosity, being open, and releasing your tension of releasing, you know, you're setting, if you're releasing, you're basically letting go of any, you know, reservations, and then expanding, it's about expanding the circle. But as a leader, I'll just kind of take this to a high level and say, the leader has to go first has to be curious first with themselves to say,

What is it I'm holding back? What are the things that I need to share? Because by me modeling the way, by me being my full self, I'm gonna let people know that it's okay for them to be okay sharing who they are. If they're reserved, they're not being fully themselves, other people notice that. You've seen leaders who show up in the room and they're very reserved or...

Harsh Thakkar (09:26)
Hmm.

Tony Martignetti (09:40)
Or maybe they play a good game of acting for many years and then all of a sudden you see a different side of them and you're like, where did this come from? The reality is people see right through the facade. So it's best to try and connect with like, what is it about me that makes me unique? Who am I really? And how can I bring more of that in a very authentic and real way into the workplace? And then the opening up is about sharing that.

Harsh Thakkar (09:48)
Yep.

Hmm.

Tony Martignetti (10:09)
with others. And then the releasing is like releasing any tension, any reservations that you have about that. Because there are it's challenging to kind of say, hey, like, I'm going to be sharing maybe something about myself, I've never shared with anyone else. And then expanding is about getting other people to do the same.

Harsh Thakkar (10:26)
Hmm and you

Okay, so that's the core framework. And do you think that, do you think that like the example that you were giving that there's a lot of leaders who are basically preventing and bringing out their true selves or they know, they have some sort of self perception, but they're afraid to bring that out because they don't know if it will positively or.

It will negatively impact their career or their promotion opportunity or being liked by others and whatnot. So I'm guessing that at some point, like you said, it damages their chances of innovating or doing something different or even their credibility. So how can people figure out what...

their true self is before they even decide whether they want to bring it to work.

Tony Martignetti (11:33)
love you ask that because this is exactly, you know, one of the things that I focused on in my last book, which is called can't fire lessons for leaders is this idea that like connecting with who you are is about really going into the past and saying, what makes me who I am? What is my narrative? And spending some time unlocking those moments, I call them flashpoints, these points in your journey that have ignited your gifts into the world. And spending some time not

Harsh Thakkar (11:49)
Hmm.

Tony Martignetti (12:00)
hiding from the past, but really understanding it. And so the more you understand yourself, you connect with yourself, then the more likely you can connect better with others. So unearthing the key stories that have made you who you are allows you to say, yeah, those aren't things that maybe, you know, I might have seen as a challenging period in my life. It actually instead was a moment that maybe

realize this is why I do what I do. I'll give you an example. I've interviewed quite a lot of people in my podcasts, The Virtual Campfire, and that was a lot of the context of the book. But there's people who have come on who've said, hey, I was in the darkest moment of my life, or I was diagnosed with cancer, and I didn't know if I would even live for another year. And in that moment, I realized that life is precious.

Harsh Thakkar (12:48)
Hmm.

Tony Martignetti (12:57)
and I wanted to make the most of every moment. Yeah.

Harsh Thakkar (13:02)
Yeah.

Tony Martignetti (13:04)
Yeah, good.

Harsh Thakkar (13:04)
And yeah,

so I think when you were mentioning about that, I started thinking actually when I started my career in 2012, that was, I didn't know up until now. I mean, yeah, I know it was a turning point or a flash point, or I'm sure there's other words for it. But that was like one of the moments in my career where I was like applying for tons of jobs. I was on a student visa, so no biotech or pharma company wanted to sponsor.

my job employment visa. And it was, it was an uphill battle. I think I applied to like a hundred plus jobs. I even stopped counting after a certain point. and nothing was working out. Like I, I hired resume writers. I hired like interview prep people and I've read all the books. Nothing was working for me at that time. And, that's when I talked to some other people in the industry through networking and whatever. And they say, Hey, you know,

Tony Martignetti (13:42)
Yeah.

Harsh Thakkar (14:01)
You can start, you can become a consultant and work as a consultant and the agency will then help you with your student visa. And eventually you end up working for a pharma or biotech company. So you're still doing the same job, but you can at least start getting the experience. I moved from New York to Boston. I started working at Millennium Pharmaceuticals in Cambridge that ended up being acquired by Takeda, then worked at Biogen and just.

those four years from 2012 to like 2016, it's like if I didn't take that leap and say, okay, you know what, this is not working, let me just go into consulting and see how it is. I would have not been here because my career would not have gone to where it has gone. So just that one decision to be like, okay, let me try this, went to four years, and then those four years brought like tons of other opportunities and now it's 2024.

Yeah, so that's, yeah.

Tony Martignetti (15:01)
Yeah,

I love that you share that because this is exactly the kind of thing that like it's that one decision that ignited your gifts into the world or this idea of like being able to take that lesson of, you know, there are options. There's, you know, when you see a wall, you know, you don't have to be stopped by that wall. Instead, look for opportunities to look around and say, how do I overcome this barrier? Well, the barrier might be overcome by looking at new options.

And then you start to see as you move forward that I can do hard things. I can do things that are challenges at first, but ultimately they're surmountable.

Harsh Thakkar (15:45)
Yeah, yeah. And when you mention about flashpoints, a question I had for you is, how can, so in terms of whether it's a person or a organization or a team, they all have different flashpoints, right? Like, so you mentioned about Genzyme, let's say, or Henry, right? So Genzyme as a company has a flashpoint, Henry has, or had his flashpoints, the other people in the team had their own.

Tony Martignetti (16:02)
Yeah.

Harsh Thakkar (16:13)
So how can everyone identify their own flashpoint and sort of align to the company's flashpoint to where they wanna go? I've seen this in sports where some teams have this identity about them that they are gritty or they are underdogs or whatever you wanna call it. And everyone embraces that and they're like, hey, this is who I am. Nobody believes in me, but I'm gonna win it all, right? So can you share an example of how can it be?

Tony Martignetti (16:38)
Yeah.

Harsh Thakkar (16:41)
in an organization versus an employee or person can identify their flashpoints and connect it all together.

Tony Martignetti (16:49)
I love that you share this because you just brought to light the thing that I've been exploring a lot since the book came out. When you write a book, sometimes it takes on a new life when it's published. And I thought about it as more personal flashpoint than as opposed to a company thing. But the more I've explored this conversation with other people, I'm like, yeah, this absolutely is something that a company can explore as their identity.

Harsh Thakkar (17:00)
Mmm.

Tony Martignetti (17:18)
You know, what are the things that have made us who we are? What were the moments that challenged us? Like that first clinical trial that failed and almost had us on the ropes of going out of business because we didn't know how to move forward. But then one glimmer of good clinical data that allowed us to see the light, right? And to be able to move forward and then change the dynamics of the business or whatever it may be, you know, that those are the kind of things that, you know, can help a company to define.

You know what it is, is their narrative, their through line that allows them to share with others and to enroll others to want to come on the mission for the next chapter. As I said, the byline of the book is how uncovering your past can propel you forward. And that's a powerful image when you think about it. When you go back and look at the past by exploration, and it's not just one person working alone, if it's a company.

It's really saying, well, what are the things, even the most challenging periods that we learned a lot from that allowed us to really leapfrog forward and, and propel us to where we are today. And we'll propel us even further from where we are today. And I think that is a really good way to explore that is to do it as a group, to have a conversation.

Harsh Thakkar (18:26)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. And also, there are other examples that I've, I was thinking as you're mentioning this, you know, Airbnb, the founder, Brian Chesky, there's been like a lot of, you know, screenshots and stuff on social media when he had emailed like some investors when he was in Y Combinator and like some big investors told him, no, we're not gonna, nobody's gonna rent out their home and turn it into a bed and breakfast.

And he still pursued that idea and Airbnb. I know there are some haters and lovers of Airbnb, but as a company, it was a minimal investment from two college kids or whatever, when they were in Y Combinator and it's a big company. Another one is Canva. So the CEO of Canva also, she's a female CEO and she faced a lot of critics that...

Tony Martignetti (19:14)
Yeah.

Harsh Thakkar (19:34)
didn't want to invest or didn't think that she could build that company. That's like a billion dollar plus company. And it's a very unique product that tons of people in social media and all over are using that every day. So those are two examples that at least I've seen of how those two leaders knew their personal flashpoint and literally became their company's flashpoint, you know, as they started leading. So.

Tony Martignetti (20:03)
Yeah, and to challenge that even further to say, and those are great examples, by the way, I think there's also a sense of this, which is to say that life goes on and they continue to have moments that challenge them to say, well, you know, maybe my image, the image of, you know, let's look at Elon Musk for just a moment, not to dwell on him, because I know he is a very polarizing figure. But, you know, maybe there's a moment now that he's, you know, starts to think, what's my,

Harsh Thakkar (20:13)
Mm.

Tony Martignetti (20:33)
flashpoint moment in this moment where I need to think differently about how I'm leading, how my companies are developing. And, you know, it gives him an opportunity to, to change the path he's on or change the way he shows up. And I have a strong belief that there's leaders and organizations that can change our trajectory by, if I can say the word, by simply taking that moment to reflect and say, where do we come from?

Where are we now? Where do we wanna go? And how do we use all those points to really understand the things that we know about ourselves to do what's the right thing for the next chapter?

Harsh Thakkar (21:21)
Yeah, yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned Elon, because I did read his biography book, and it's intense. There are some parts in there, texts or not texts, but messages or opinions from employees who are still working there or who worked at Tesla or SpaceX. And that's...

It was his identity. Like at one point, I think Tesla was going bankrupt and he basically didn't want that to happen. So he ended up, you know, putting 70, 80 hours, whatever. And there are messages in there from employees who are getting a phone call at 4 a to say, hey, can you come and finish this part of this engineering run so that we can move on? And literally they had to put on their PJs and go to work.

And some people quit because they're like, I can't do this. But others were bought into the idea and they knew that, you know, Tesla was a unique company and they wanted to be part of that journey. And he had told them, this is not going to be easy, but they were all bought in. Right. So it's a good example of, yeah, you can always agree or disagree to how a leader,

In this case, Elon, he has a lot of haters and lovers for multiple reasons, but yeah, it's buying into that idea and then knowing that that's what it's gonna take.

Tony Martignetti (22:56)
Yeah. And you know, he really did an amazing job of selling the idea to the people who were those people who did show up and want to do the work because they believed in what he was building. And I think that's a really great quality of a, of a, of some of a leader who can share a vision of a future that people want to engage in. I guess the

Harsh Thakkar (23:02)
Hmm.

Tony Martignetti (23:22)
The downside of that is making sure that you also keep people's wellbeing in mind. And then that is so critical too, is that it's great to get people to do things that are well beyond, you know, the standard, but just make sure that you have their interests in mind as well. And you want to care for their wellbeing because you can't put people in burnout states for extended periods of time, period.

Harsh Thakkar (23:44)
Hmm.

Yeah,

yeah. And I had a friend in tech who made this quote and he was telling me, because we were having a discussion about Tesla and electric cars and whatnot. And he's like, Tesla doesn't sell cars, it sells a commitment to climate change. And there are people who want a Tesla because they want to show, they want a signal to the world that I am committed to the climate change and using electric vehicles or whatever.

I think Elon really used that in his storytelling. If you watch some of the investor videos and stuff that he did, he was really honing in his story on that point. So it was never about, look at this Tesla, look at the wheel, look at this. It was more about, hey, this is what we need for reducing the carbon footprint and for the climate. This is what we need. And that's what he sold over and over again.

And that's why a lot of people, it looks great. It's a great looking car, but this is a quote that he said, you know, Tesla doesn't sell cars, it sells commitment to climate change. So that was interesting take from him. I know another.

Tony Martignetti (25:01)
It's like the quote from

the Little Prince. If you remember the book, The Little Prince, it's written by a Frenchman. I can't remember his name exactly. But there's this quote about, instead of trying to motivate people to step up and do the work, instead have them long for the sea. Instead of motivating them to build a ship, have them long for the sea. And.

Harsh Thakkar (25:06)
No.

Mmm.

Tony Martignetti (25:30)
I'll have to get that quote all dialed in for you, but nonetheless, go look it up. You'll find it.

Harsh Thakkar (25:33)
Yeah.

Yeah, there is another similar one. It's, have you, did you play Mario Brothers video game as a kid? Yeah, so do you know like, yeah, do you know the part where like the character like knocks, like he bumps the bricks with his head and then he, I think it's like a mushroom or something and then he becomes really big and powerful.

Tony Martignetti (25:45)
Okay. Of course.

Harsh Thakkar (26:02)
So I've seen this like image on social media where somebody said, okay, this is the character, this is the superpower that he needs, and then this is what the character becomes. And oftentimes people, when they sell a product or service, they're focusing on that middle piece of what this character will consume, but that's not what you should focus on. You should focus on the end result, what that character will become after taking your product or service.

And it was a very nice visual of like, hey, if you sell this, you will not have to worry about all the other parts because you're selling the outcome, not, you know, the product or the service.

Tony Martignetti (26:45)
Now it's going to be in my mind all day. I'm going to be thinking of Mario Brothers. So now thanks for that, Harsh.

Harsh Thakkar (26:47)
Yeah, I'm sure if you look up Mario

Brothers marketing or something on LinkedIn or Twitter, you'll find a lot of posts on that topic. At least I've seen many. I want to jump into another topic that I have here, which is you also talked about this a lot in your content. It's about divergent minds and convergent hearts and how

So how can, why is it important first of all to embrace different point of views in workplace? And then how can we bring these two together?

Tony Martignetti (27:29)
Yeah, I mean, it's so important, first of all, because if we're hiring the same people over and over again, and bringing the people to the table and saying, okay, let's, you know, let's do some innovation, let's do this build a strategy. Problem is that we're constantly going to be, you know, hearing an echo chamber of people who agree with us, of people who, you know, bring the same ideas, but we need some some healthy friction.

Harsh Thakkar (27:50)
Hmm.

Tony Martignetti (27:57)
We need people to bring new ideas. And the best way to do that is to have, you know, divergent thinking. And that means bringing a diverse group of people, people from different industries even, who are willing to speak up and say, hey, I don't get that. Or, you know, here's what I'm thinking about that. Or here's my understanding of that situation. And all those things are welcomed, never, you know, diminished by the people in the room.

but instead say, yeah, you may think that's crazy or there's, you know, you may think that's a stupid question, but that's not stupid. In fact, we should explore that that's worth looking into. And those things help us to really, you know, create something different in the world, which oftentimes is what's required. We're constantly getting new ideas by having different thinking in the world. And I would even argue to say we need neurodivergent thinking.

Oftentimes people are afraid to hire people with like neurodiverse backgrounds or neurodiverse ways of thinking. The reality is there's some brilliance that we're leaving off the table if we don't bring them in the room. It's it requires some adjustment. It requires some grace and some ability for other people to to slow down the way that they approach their way of running business.

Harsh Thakkar (29:02)
Hmm.

Tony Martignetti (29:25)
but ultimately the benefits are huge. And the reason why I talk about this idea of convergent hearts is that by opening the aperture a little bit and allowing other people in the room and listening to them, we may have a better understanding of them too. And that allows us to connect and maybe build relationships that long -term helps us to feel seen and heard.

Harsh Thakkar (29:49)
Yeah, and the question I was thinking as you're mentioning about the divergent minds or bringing different perspectives, you mentioned that if a company or organization keeps hiring the same type of people or with the same experience, everybody starts sounding the same or has the same input and you're missing out on that different perspective in a meeting or in a room.

But as an individual, if you, let's say if I want to be intentionally divergent in my thinking, what can I do, right? Like if I'm, let's say in quality, if I'm in a technology or a software developer or I'm a project manager and I just keep getting project manager roles one after another, because it's a better pay, a higher promotion, I'm always gonna be in the same.

Tony Martignetti (30:30)
Great question.

Harsh Thakkar (30:46)
type of room with the same type of people. So what are some of the tips that you give people to become more divergent thinkers? Should they be like reading books? Should they be taking a completely different job and putting themselves in an uncomfortable environment that forces them to think different? What are some of the tips?

Tony Martignetti (31:05)
Well, you know, I love that you bring this up because it's all those things and much more. It's really about thinking about your consumption. You know, what are you consuming? You know, what is the your steady diet of consumption of information and where is it coming from? So it might require reading different books, you know, pull at the threads of the things that, you know, on the are in the left field or in the right field of how you're currently thinking.

Harsh Thakkar (31:07)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Tony Martignetti (31:35)
If you have like, if you're deep in the quality space, maybe it's time for you to think like, Hey, I wonder like what it, I wonder if I could find out a little bit more information about what it's like to be, you know, to understand what the finance perspective is or to understand what is marketing do and how do they do it? this can be done through what I call curiosity conversations, conversations that are just geared to getting to know people and getting to know what, how do they think? What do they do?

Harsh Thakkar (31:49)
Mmm.

Tony Martignetti (32:04)
how, what are some of the hot topics that are on their minds with no other, no other agenda than to just expand your own understanding and hopefully also give them some perspective of yourself. So yes, conversations, books for sure. You know, pick up that book that you potentially be like, I don't know, that's not typically me, but I think I'd be curious as to see, you know, what does the art world have to say about innovation?

you know, what is the, you know, maybe there's something I can learn about brain science, I don't know. But those things that are just on the to the left of what you normally would look at, try it. podcasts and what have you. So I think whatever you can do, try new things, do new things, it doesn't mean you have to stick with them. It just means that you have to be willing to experiment in different arenas. And that alone allows you to start to be more.

Harsh Thakkar (32:34)
Mmm.

Tony Martignetti (33:04)
neuroplastic and just allow yourself to expand your ability to think like, wow, interesting, you know, just even spending that little time with those people got me thinking differently.

Harsh Thakkar (33:17)
Yeah, and oftentimes, you know, I think this is the challenge I had is when I was never a good reader in my teenage years or even up until when I was like in my 20s. And then once I started, you know, working in corporate and I wanted to read more about business or finance or entrepreneurship or whatever, I was always reading for an answer, right?

Tony Martignetti (33:17)
Make sense?

Harsh Thakkar (33:44)
And sometimes that's good, but other other times you also just want to read just for the sake of reading because I could read 20 pages and leave with just one tip that could potentially be life -changing or I could listen to a 30 -minute podcast and just find one quote and Just think about that quote, right? So it's it's not always we always feel like every single minute of this podcast has to be helpful and

You know, it's never that, it's always that one idea that you never heard of, like you told me about the book today, No Rules, Rules, I'd never heard of it. But now I know, I'll remember that you gave me that recommendation. And when I read that book, that will be on the top of the mind. So I think it's, curiosity is definitely great, but also just being open to not seeing it as a transaction. Like, if I put 30 minutes in,

I should be getting 30 minutes worth of value from this because that's easily, you know, you can disappoint yourself.

Tony Martignetti (34:49)
Yeah, I mean, it's like you take away what you can take away and it's not like you're being tested. Instead, it's about like, this is for my own enjoyment slash expansion of my mind and therefore I can take out of it whatever I like. But ultimately, the key thing is to reflect on it and say, yeah, I just took in that information. Well, what do I wanna integrate? What do I wanna keep?

Harsh Thakkar (34:56)
Mm.

Tony Martignetti (35:16)
And what I wanna say like, yeah, some of that's just not really relevant to me and that's okay.

Harsh Thakkar (35:21)
Yeah, there's always this debate of being a specialist versus a generalist. Should you just go deep into one topic for 20 years and become the best person in the world in that topic? Or should you chase five or six different things? Be the data scientist who's also a stellar violin player. Those are two completely different domains. Data science and music, they have no relation.

and, and I've had that discussion with many people and they have a very strong opinion that no, you should just be one, like one thing. And I, I feel like you should try to do as many things as possible. And I made a post on LinkedIn and I got a lot of good feedback and a lot of criticism. I said something like, if you are, if you're starting your career in pharma, you should learn bits and pieces of everything. So you should.

If you're in QA, try to learn about clinical trials, try to learn about manufacturing, try to learn about technology. And many people agreed with that. And I said, if you learn all of these things for three or four months, within two years, you will be dangerous. Like people will not be able to compete with your knowledge because you will suddenly be able to connect all the dots. And some people like, no, your resume is gonna look all...

you know, whack, you need to just stick to one thing and do that because in early on in your career, you want to show going back to our discussion that you have done the same thing in the past year after year after year. And that was their argument. But I personally feel like you should try to dabble in different things. I don't know what's your take. Are you on one side or do you feel they both have a space in the room?

Tony Martignetti (37:12)
Well, I 100 % agree with what you're saying. And I'm more on your side of the of the other perspective. But I think the key thing is to, you know, even though you're dipping your toe in other areas doesn't mean you have to go in and deep, deeply swim in them. What it means is, is having conversations doesn't mean that you're committing to throw out the baby with the bathwater. If you know what I mean, you know, you can be in, you know, playing in the quality space, but

Harsh Thakkar (37:27)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Tony Martignetti (37:42)
but really having conversations and maybe getting on projects involving other areas is gonna make you a better quality person. And eventually at some point you decide, hey, if I really want to expand my capacity to be a well -rounded biotech leader, then ultimately maybe it's time for me to look at like another aspect of the business. Maybe it's about.

expanding into regulatory or it's about getting into project management, you know, program management, or, you know, there could be many aspects of how you pivot and create different parts of it. And by having that exposure that you've gotten, you start to see pathways and ways that people would say like, yeah, you know, I've always had good conversations with harsh he's a she's someone I'd like to, and I would definitely invest in him because he's someone who's curious, interested.

Harsh Thakkar (38:17)
Hmm.

Tony Martignetti (38:39)
And he's got a well rounded sense of how things work. Whereas if someone who just says, I'll put my head down, go deep in one area, and that's it, that's not going to serve them because they're ultimately going to be pigeonholed as this is only they only know quality. And I'm not saying this to be a jerk to anyone in quality. If you love what you do, you do what you do. But I'm just saying that having the ability to play in other fields is not about like,

Harsh Thakkar (38:43)
Hmm.

Right. Yep, yep.

Tony Martignetti (39:07)
do quality one month, the next month you leave your job and go to another job. It's about having well -rounded understanding, not necessarily jumping from job to job.

Harsh Thakkar (39:13)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's a very important takeaway. We've had so much amazing conversation and topics today. What's one thing you want the listeners to take away from this discussion?

Tony Martignetti (39:36)
Yeah, well, I would say the first thing you can do that I'd like to lead people with is if you're feeling stuck, or if you're feeling like you need a new perspective, I like to share that expand your vision and narrow your focus. Expanding your vision, it's really about what else is possible? What else is available to me? Where can I get curious and dig deeper? And then once you've identified something you want to explore,

Harsh Thakkar (39:54)
Hmm.

Tony Martignetti (40:06)
then you can narrow down and say, hey, this is an area I'd like to spend more time, go deeper. Yeah. And that way you can get into action.

Harsh Thakkar (40:11)
Love that quote. Yeah.

Expand your vision and narrow your focus. That's lovely. Listen, it's been amazing having you on. Thank you so much. I know you're busy. You're doing a bunch of stuff and I follow your content on LinkedIn. So thank you for everything you're posting and all the books and shows that you're doing. For the listeners who want to connect with you or who want to have you in their company or for a talking event or just...

Tony Martignetti (40:19)
Yes.

Harsh Thakkar (40:45)
reach out to you, what's the best way to connect with you?

Tony Martignetti (40:49)
Well, the best place to find me is at my website, which is I purpose partners .com. And so you can go there and you can find a bunch of stuff there. And then also LinkedIn, as you know, I'm pretty active there. You can find me at my name, Tony Martinetti with a one at the end as opposed to an I.

Harsh Thakkar (41:09)
Okay, great. And I will also put some of the books or anything, the TED Talk that we mentioned in the show notes. So for the listeners, you will be able to find those links in the show notes once the episode is live and you'll be able to check them out too.

Tony Martignetti (41:27)
wonderful.

Harsh Thakkar (41:28)
Thanks, Tony. Appreciate your time and wish you all the best and keep doing what you're doing and keep inspiring. Thank you.

Tony Martignetti (41:35)
Thank you.