Antiksha Joshi  0:00  
Yeah, it's a good point, I think I've had seen a fair share of SOPs that are 30-40 pages long, but I'm none the wiser after reading them. It's my pet peeve actually as a QA person to see such procedures. So I live by a very simple rule, which is 

Harsh Thakkar  0:20 
[Podcast Intro message]
All right, we're live. Today we have our guest Antiksha Joshi from Queensland, Australia, and she is the Director of Urmi quality management consulting. Welcome to the show Antiksha.

Antiksha Joshi  0:50  
Thanks, Harsh. Thanks for having me. 

Harsh Thakkar  0:52  
Yeah. So first thing I want to ask you, I know you started consulting very recently, less than a year ago, why? Why did you go from employment into consulting? It seems like a lot of people are going that route these days. 

Antiksha Joshi  1:05  
Yeah, it is, after I decided to go into consulting is when I realized that lots of people are getting into it performed me it was a mix of two main reasons one being personal. And the other was that I have spent so much time in quality in various industries, various countries in more than 20 years in the industry. And I've gained a lot of experience, and found that the issues are common across organizations and across countries. And I want to do something different with quality as in, get all the lots of misconceptions and things around it, make it simpler for organizations to be able to implement quality that ultimately leads to compliance as well. So I decided to put my experience to use and went down the route of being a consultant. I started this and named it after my maternal grandmother who's an inspiration to me in terms of being resilient and just taking it one piece at a time to get what you want. So 

 
Harsh Thakkar  2:07  
Okay. And you talked about misconceptions in the quality role. So it's immediately when you said that my question was, what are those misconceptions? What do you think is people have a wrong impression about a quality assurance role? 

Antiksha Joshi  2:23  
Yeah, so I think the misconceptions, and I've coined this word for it, or conditioned bias. So the misconceptions have been handed down from one person to the other in the organization, and also between organizations. And when I say misconceptions among people, I also include the quality people working in quality as well. So the general if use word speak to people, and the quality is too difficult, it needs too much time and resource, why fix things? They always want us to fix things, even if you know, the auditor didn't find it, or the quality people are policing people. And why should the rest of the company spend time worrying about quality and documentation when we have a whole department to worry about that and do that job. So these misconceptions, unfortunately, make it a tunnel vision for the company, you know, towards the concept of quality. So I think the biggest misconception is that quality and compliance are the same thing, which it is not it is quality that leads to compliance. And compliance is just the bare minimum you would do if you were wanting to get into a particular market or can meet your license, keep your license, etc. So I think that those are the misconceptions that people have. And unfortunately, with the kind of experiences that the QA people have as well, in the organization, they tend to take on that policing role. They've become sort of, I don't know if this is the right word to use, but mistrusting of everything that comes their way, and they want to be more and more involved in the review and make sure that everything is okay because they are answerable to a regulator they are answerable to a client when you know, issues happen with a product or a process or a batch. So then it becomes them unwillingly. They become these sort of policemen telling people what to do, how to write things, and why this really need to be done in the way they are saying. 

Harsh Thakkar  4:29  
Yeah, it's not unwillingly according to you. It's conditioned bias. They've been conditioned over and over. Yeah, to to, you know, and it's, it's hard for any QA person listening to this because they've gone through similar situations, you're in a stressful meeting or a stressful project where you kind of don't want to do things a certain way, but you have to because five people in the other room are not on your side. So yeah, I definitely get that I can relate to that. Being in the QA space for some time now. So what do you what do you love about being a QA consultant or a QA professional and what is something maybe that you don't like about it. 

Antiksha Joshi  5:11  
Really love being in QA. So I have a degree in microbiology. And I probably just spent about a year or two in the lab and then got attracted to the company I was working with was going for an ISO 9000 certification. And us very early on in my career that is like a year or two into joining the workforce is when I got exposed to the Quality Management System, or the ISO 9000. System. And I helped you with drafting the procedures and being a part of that team. So that kind of arouse my interest. And to me, it is a common sense way of doing business. So I don't think there's anything that I dislike, probably there are moments like when I said, you know, when you said rightly, that you're in a room full of people and except you everyone else wants to do something totally different. And you know that this is going to land you in trouble. And then having those tough discussions and putting your foot down or the stress of having to face an auditor knowing that something is wrong and needs fixing, or is a problem. So I think there are moments when you I feel that yeah, being QA is stressful, and should give it an impact. Overall, in my journey, I really enjoy everything to do with QA, because I think it's just a common sense approach of doing work. Any aspect of the business? 

Harsh Thakkar  6:37  
I agree with that, because a lot of times, we are in the quality assurance role, there's so many different activities that are going on, there isn't like you can't just say like QA is one, two, and three, three things. No, it's, there's a bit of everything involved, and which is why, you know, common sense or critical thinking or these skills that that don't apply to one domain. They're just like, their wide range of skills. And anyone that has those skills, does better. But anyone who's sort of tunnel vision has a tough time being in QA because they can't really grasp or having to work on so many things at the same time. So I definitely relate to that. You are a consultant, I'm sure you're working with tons of clients, and you're always talking about either ISO 9000 standards or regulations and working on different projects. One of the most common things I've seen is clients don't really keep up with all the changes that are going on in the industry, right? Most of the times they're only in their own SOPs and work instructions. Some clients do keep up. But what do you think is what do you think are some of the challenges how clients can keep up with the regulatory changes that are going on? 

Antiksha Joshi  8:00  
Yeah, it's a good point to make that clients often don't realize the regulatory changes that are being enforced. And especially, you know, with the life science industry, so much is happening right now. There's, even the regulators are sort of upping the game now learning about what old technology and new products and everything is out there that they're also kind of writing these regulations, and more and more of them are coming now. So for an industry to keep up with, especially if you're a CDMO, it's hard, because you're dealing with so many different products and clients, I think there are a couple of things that the industry can do. One is if you are a CDMO, and working with a variety of clients, it would be good for your QA/Regulatory team, to have a one to one conversation with the clients, regulatory experts at the start of the project to know what is around their product or process that's come up. And also, I think the second thing that CDMOs would benefit from is periodically hiring consultants with regulatory background to come in, do an assessment of their systems or that particular work that they're doing against what are the new regulations. So I think these two things can help them stay in the loop of what's happening in the regulatory world. And obviously, QA people obviously out of interest out of the nature of the job are constantly reading up and looking at what's come up new. So I think just encouraging your QA team to spend about even 5% of the time in a month to just go through, okay, what's there in the FDA space and what's there in the MHRA space, and you can subscribe to free updates on the FDA site. So they send you emails with what new guidance documents have come in, you could be part of the forum. And so this just keeps you in the loop. 

Harsh Thakkar  9:54  
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, there's a large like you mentioned for the FDA, I was talking to some other consultant, and he mentioned that he uses Google Alerts. So he sets up keywords on Google Alerts. So anytime there's something new, comes up, he gets his article or blog or whatever he gets, he gets notified. So yeah, there's no excuse to not know what's going on. And then, as you mentioned, doing a gap analysis from periodically, if you can do that, maybe hire some external help to do a gap analysis of what's lacking from your QMS against whichever regulations or standards you want to shoot for. One thing that's really interesting, when I talk to people who are in a different country, or different parts of the globe, you're in Australia, a lot of the things that we do in quality are same whether you're in Australia, India, or us, but being in a different country, being in a different culture definitely plays a very big role in how quality is done. So according to you, what do you what do you see, like, how is quality done in Australia? Versus how is it done? Let's say in India, or US based on your conversations with other QA professionals? 

Antiksha Joshi  11:08  
Yes, so definitely, there is a little bit of a difference in the approach towards quality between Australia and my experience has been with people in the US, UK, and India. And what I find is that in Australia, the market for commercial pharma and life science manufacturing is very small, it's very limited. So the focus on quality or around those aspects is very minimal. Most of the work that happens is around the research space, and then sort of translating that just for scale up or very early phase. And you know that when it comes to anything to do with university research and very early phase clinical trials, the concept is always up, we don't have to worry too much about the regulations, we don't have to worry too much about GMP. So the concept of quality is still taking a route from last year onwards, the Australian Government is making considerable efforts to engage with the university industry and associated experts to bring that research into the industry and support them with financial support to be able to think holistically about it, not just do the research. So quality systems, the approach to quality is also now being considered and talked about, yeah, it can be slow going, because it's it's relatively new concept. But there are quite a few university research organizations and very small startups, who are now willing to implement even the basics of the QMS. At the very start. And this is also something that, you know, international investors are asking about when they want to make investments in organization. So I think it's going to be a steep learning curve in terms of quality systems for Australian life science industry, but it is going to be for the good. So yeah, looking forward to what comes up in this space in Australia, and support from TGA in getting these systems and approach towards quality changed. 

Harsh Thakkar  13:15  
It's interesting when you were saying that investors are looking or investors are trying to see whether companies are implementing a basic or fundamental QMS that's that's a very interesting point. Because to me, it shows that if a company or organization is investing in quality, that early, it's going to lead to, you know, better efficiency and effectiveness and better products or services. So that's an interesting take that investors are looking for companies who are thinking about QMs, early in their journey. When when you talk about procedures or documentation, you know, as a quality assurance person, you probably wrote many procedures reviewed a lot a lot in your career. What are some of the things that you look for, to make sure that the procedure is simple and clear, because the most challenging aspect of SOPs is that they're written from a lens of being compliant, but eventually are not followed, you know, by the employees of the organization. And this is shown by you know, the FDA observations also show this data. So what do you think, can be done in that on that side of things to make it simple, clear, and, you know, something that people want to follow? 

Antiksha Joshi  14:46  
Yeah, it's a good point. I think I've had seen a fair share of SOPs that are 30-40 pages long, but I'm none the wiser after reading them. So it's my pet peeve actually as a QA person seem to see such procedures. So I live by a very simple rule, which is, if I read an SOP, and if I can't do what the SOP says at least 90% of the instructions, I cannot follow on my own. And I have to go and ask somebody again and again on how aware things are, then that is an ineffective SOP. Don't ask me why I picked 90%. But that's the kind percentage, I look at that. And also, if the SOP doesn't tell me the what, when, where, how of doing things, then that also to me is an ineffective SOP. So and obviously, the length like I mentioned, if it's too long, it's not going to be followed. So my advice to people when they are writing SOPs is first and foremost, all always, you know, get the people who are doing that task to write it. Don't worry too much about the grammar and the English, it can be polished towards the end. But the people who are right doing the task, or who have to do it should be writing it. And they should first start with a process map. And if you're doing data generating activity is a part of that to also have a data map with it. So first, and my favorites are swimlanes. And that just gives me a clearer idea of where the process is going, where the data is going to be generated. And if that data is critical or not. So then this having that in front of you to then just start putting that in words. And often I've seen what that also does is it also tells you that okay, instead of one, I might need two different procedures, because you know, the other department, which is part of it has a chunk of work. And I do want to mix it with my own SOP, because it's not really relevant to me. So starting with a process map, and a data map data map is important because then your data integrity requirements. And controls can be   built into your procedure, which I think a lot of companies forget about. And then you end up with the eye issues down the road. So I think just having that visual and use a lot of visual clues. If you can put pictures, you can put diagrams, do that if you can put process flows with that. And I know this is very simple, but always have a section on troubleshooting or something like if something goes wrong, because even if it's as simple as stop the process and inform your supervisor, I think it's needed. It's all right to do the training. But it's good to have it there in that heat of the moment when something has really gone wrong. I think those are just some tips for it. 

Harsh Thakkar  17:43  
Yeah, it's if I can't agree more with what you just said about the importance, right, because I was going to ask you a follow up question Why Why should people create process maps and data maps? But you answer that question. And I'm glad you you're stressed on this, because I've seen the same thing with the data maps, a lot of companies are they do a little bit on the process side because they understand flowchart or swim lanes or what have you. But the data maps is still sort of a concept that they don't really know how to do, and then how to find the data objects that are regulated versus non regulated and how to maintain that. But it's, it's, it's required. If you're serious about data integrity, and data management, you should definitely consider doing that in conjunction with your process maps, because it gives you a clearer idea of how to even write your SOP and where to put the checks, right. Because if you don't know, where the data is generated, processed, updated. If you don't know these data actions or data transactions, you're not going to be able to write a clear SOP, right? If you know where these are, then you can, you know, make sure that your integrity data integrity is built into the process to some extent, rather than just you know, going into the system and verifying the records. 

Antiksha Joshi  19:06  
Yeah, and I think data integrity issues are not so much you know, because people are willingly mouth doing the wrong thing. It's often because of a lack of understanding of what data integrity means. And a simple thing like do not write on a post it note to pass the you know that reading to the next department who needs to do the next step or whatever. Sometimes you'll be surprised so many people don't understand that it's not acceptable. And especially those who have either joined the industry recently so students and or even people who are in the research space who don't have to worry so much about the complex, so more intense GMP requirements, so for them to get their heads around these things. I think it just makes sense to put that in the procedure that they look at in and out they every day, maybe, so that it just gets ingrained in their head. 

Harsh Thakkar  20:10  
Yep. Yep. One of the things that I find about processes, which is my pet peeve is a lot of times when something doesn't work, the immediate reaction people have is let's update the SOP, right? Yes, maybe that's where you should be going. But there is five other things you can do to fix the problem or whatever, whatever you're dealing with. But I've seen the quick reaction of oh, let's update the SOP. So question I want to ask you as a quality assurance professional is when do you think a process needs to be updated? And when do you think it should be left as is? 

Antiksha Joshi  20:58  

Yes. This is the million dollar question, because the easiest solution to all deviations, right? Yeah. Or you find an audit finding, and you commit to write a new procedure, or you commit to update one spot? Exactly. Yep. Yeah, it's one of those. Yeah, I think it's industry wide. I think when it comes to writing a new procedure, or updating procedures around existing processes, and need to, obviously, if there is a, you need to look at a couple of things. So one thing is, obviously, there's a new regulation has come in, and you really need to comply to that, and it's not already part of the procedure, go ahead and do it. The other thing is, when it comes to procedures around processes, or systems, you need to look at some ancillary data and information. So by then what I mean is, you've noticed that you've got a lot of human error deviations around a particular piece of equipment, right. And then, and if so many different people are making an error on the same equipment, then you need to look at the equipment and the procedure around that not the people. So think that that is one thing. So this is what your monthly or three monthly QMR reviews, or matrix reviews should be looking at that, okay, we're constantly getting a failure on a fermenter. And every time the root cause is human error. But if so many different operators are making the same kind of error, then there's something wrong with a process not them. So then go back and look at it. And sometimes identifying a system that needs updating, also, you go back to looking at your matrix a little differently. So you might have a lot of deviation, say around sampling of raw materials. But every time most of the companies have the tendency to have a KPI or matrix or graph that is around the most common root causes. That's also needed. I'm not saying it's not important, but then if you're looking for improving a process, then you look at it and go, Okay, we having most of our deviations, irrespective of the root cause are centered around sampling. So now let's go look at that process and look at whether it needs changing whether it needs updating or that it's fine, but the interpretation is not, you know, correct by the people. So I think those are the things that you should look for when you're deciding to make major changes to your process or procedures. 

Harsh Thakkar  23:46  
I agree with you You brought up a good point about deviations and how most times people will just say like, the solution is to update the SOP so I wasn't thinking along those lines but yes, that is also like I'm already like going down on that path and I have so many questions to ask you there but I want to go into a word or term that's currently seems to be favorite for a lot of people in the QA and life sciences space and it is quality culture. I have seen this like in you know industry presentations, LinkedIn company meetings all over you know, everybody's about quality culture, build a culture. What is your definition of a quality culture? 

Antiksha Joshi  24:35  
Yeah, there's a lot happening around that word. And to me it's a little bit scary because now it will sort of get a lot of hype because it's being thrown around by regulators as well and you know, the FDA launching the quality maturity matrix, etc. But to me quality culture is is a simple what you do day to day, in your business, right from you know, entering into your business or your walk into to the door and till the end of the day when you leave, and everything you do between that time period to make a product that is safe and effective for the patients, to keep the environment in which your staff is working, also safe, keep your employees engaged, keep your customers happy. So in order to achieve all these goals, it's your day to day practices, basically, that form your culture. It's not not a buzzword. It's not the end goal. It's a daily process. And it is what will lead to a profitable, successful business that meets patient needs. So to me, that's what quality culture is all about. 

Harsh Thakkar  25:40  
And one interesting thing I noticed on your on your LinkedIn profile is you've talked about conducting quality culture assessments. And that's interesting, I don't see that often. So what is it? What is included in that assessment? Have you done any for any clients? 

Antiksha Joshi  26:00  
Oh, yes. So I have done for one client. And basically, the quality culture assessment is just to understand the pulse of the organization around, like I said, you know, the day to day operations and the working of the company. So what I do is I combined the concepts of the pharmaceutical quality system based mostly on ICH Q10, the ISO 9000, and concepts of lean manufacturing. And I've categorized them into a few categories to do the assessment. So they're like management responsibility, employee engagement, evaluation activities, and some additional ancillary supporting work. So under leadership, management responsibility, that would be categories like leadership alignment, how aligned is the entire leadership team towards the same business and quality goals, leadership communication around then their approach to QMS? Or under employee engagement, it will be things like employees ownership, their training and education, their responsibility evaluation activities are really good, because they include the approach of the organization on things like how about the KPIs? Or how they handle errors? Or CAPAs , what do they think of CAPAs and the use of risk assessments, and then the ancillary activities that can make the systems more efficient and uh, you know, the work environment more pleasant are things like housekeeping, continuous improvements, and things like resource and planning, which is really important, because you'll be surprised to see how much how many employees have been complaining I know of peers and my juniors etc, who complain about just the fact that, you know, the scheduling and planning is never as it is meant to be this constant firefighting. So these are the things that I use to assess the culture, and there is a rating of one to five, one being the lowest, and five being the highest. And there are a set of phrases under each of those scores for each of those elements. And that's how we assess the quality culture of the organization where we did this, we use like a three step approach. So the first time when this was put this together, and the first assessment was done by the head of quality, and the CEO, to know if what their thoughts were on their organization. The next was done by all the department managers, and people leading the other functions. And then the third was for the entire organization. And then the scores were compared to see if you know, all three levels had the same thought process around the quality systems, or they were like, massive, and yes, it can through huge surprises, because you might find that the management has a completely different area that needs focus, and the staff has a completely different area of focus. So I think it helps to align the gap, and then, you know, focus on what you want to improve. 

Harsh Thakkar  29:19  
Yep. So what happened, what happened when you compare the three scores were they to off or 

Antiksha Joshi  29:27  
I think the best thing was that the management was really critical on the system, but he seemed okay, which was a big surprise. But now on the good side, but I think it's positive sign because the management is then you know, really aware of what where they want to be, even though employees think it's okay. But the management knows that there are things that can be made better. So I think that was the positive side of that assessment. 

Harsh Thakkar  30:01  
Great making making things better everyone, you know, everyone wants to make things better, whether it's quality culture or what any area. But when you're make when you want to make things better, there's always pushback. So, what have you seen when companies or management wants to make quality culture better? Or make the QMS? Better? What do you think are some of the challenges? I know you shared a post on LinkedIn about asking people what these are? So I'm curious to know, if you had got some interesting responses that you can share? 

Antiksha Joshi  30:38  
Yeah, so I think the challenge is, what I've found is that everyone says the same thing that there is a push back, because it's considered a costly initiative. Also, it's something that can't be measured directly in terms of money. So you can't put a dollar value to it immediately. And so the pushback mostly happened. And look, everything's working. And it's kind of, okay, we've passed the audits, why do you want to change this, and our culture is fine, you know. So I think that is the main pushback. For that, I think that some of the solutions, again, they lie a lot more with the QA people themselves, because unfortunately, you know, that word quality and compliance is only associated with that one function for a very long time. So then the onus is for us to change the narrative change the way we say things. In my experience, and work life, even now, as a consultant, I just don't use the words like, Oh, this is mainly for compliance, or use any sort of the buzzwords or, or fancy words that come with a quality, I will just make, break it down to the level that the individual understands. So it's more like, Okay, you are taking a whole day to just get this one material released. What's frustrates you? You know, and then they come up with this that? And then it's okay, do you have an idea of what how you can change that? And then they'll be like, yeah, we can do this. And we can do this and then said, Okay, you can do this. But while you're updated, thinking of revising this process, can you just remember that the regulator's will ask you for ABC, so please make sure you incorporate that. Or if you're looking for, you know, a technological or software based solution tool to substitute this, just make sure you know, you know, the requirements of the DI and software validation. And then, so I think when you give them that leg up, to understand the system, is meeting their requirements, they come up with good solutions, then the only thing that the QA people need to do is to remind them that there are some regulations around this, which we will need to comply to. And this is the best way we might be able to do it. So a more collaborative approach. And I think as the employees or the people executing the tasks are happier, or they will be more efficient. And when that happens, the management sees that, and then that's your ROI on your small changes, small steps. And yes, you can often get lost in the, you know, day to day, pressures of running the company getting a batch out of the door, or with some fire that's lit up suddenly. But what many people don't realize is that a lot of those fires were are avoidable if we had spent the five minutes upfront to think it through or have a more efficient system. So I think it's a slow moving process of changing the culture. And one thing that I would like to tell organizations is don't take on too much. So if you do another culture assessment, or you find that there are multiple things that need changing, just pick one or two, that are a priority, and show, you know, all regulators, auditors, clients want to see that you know what your issues are, and you are actively working towards them. That goes a long way in building trust. It's when you fail to acknowledge those at all in any manner is where the problem is, it becomes a bigger problem. So I think just take it slow, take what's important, and work on that. And then move on to the next one. 

Harsh Thakkar  34:45  
Great advice. Yep. What do you what do you do when you're not consulting with clients? What do you like to do outside of work? 

Antiksha Joshi  34:53  
Outside of work, I love to read. So every year I set myself a challenge of reading 50 books. In the year, my best has been just 44. So I have not reached my target as yet. But I think 44 was the max I have done. And that's one of my biggest passions. I carry either my Kindle or hardcopy book everywhere I go. And that sort of helps me stay on top of my challenge. And the other thing is I love paddleboarding. So Australia's got beautiful beaches, lots of good waterways. So it's fun when the weather permits. It's really fun. paddleboarding. 

Harsh Thakkar  35:34  
What's What's the interesting book that you're reading right now? 

Antiksha Joshi  35:38  
Interesting books, I want to start reading the atomic habits, something that I've just purchased. So. And I think from what I've read about the book, like, you know, making those small changes to reach instead of making big plans or something, and I think that's how even professionally in quality space, it works the same way. So I want to read that book. So that's what I've got. But over the years, I've read some interesting books might Becoming by Michelle Obama. So that was good to see the perspective like, you know, have personal first hand perspective and experiences shared. And then I've read a wonderful book by a psychologist, Viktor Frankl called Man's Search for Meaning. 

Harsh Thakkar  36:30  
That's a dynamite book. Yeah. 

Antiksha Joshi  36:31  
Yes. It's, it's, so it's one of my favorite books as well. And then after I do a lot of fiction reading, especially in a legal thriller, so that's a good break from all the other heavy reading that, you know, regulations and guidelines in this. So go back to fiction get into an imaginary world and then come back to the real world. 

Harsh Thakkar  36:53  
Yes, yes, yeah, I get nervous. Not nervous, but I get very, I don't know what the right word is. But anytime when there's a book that's been, like, really popular on social media, like atomic habits was very popular, you know, people are making posts from it. And I'm like, Okay, this book is getting way too much attention. Is this. Is this a clickbait book? Or does it actually have a substance to it? Because most of the times the books that get like, you know, a lot of publicity on social media, it's hard to know, atomic habits is an exception, because I'm glad I picked up that book, and I read it. It's a great book. But that's the thing about social media, when somebody starts talking about a book, I'm like, is this book just hype? Or is there some substance to it? 

Antiksha Joshi  37:45  
Yeah, I have a trick for that. Anything that has a lot of hype book or movie? Yeah. And more on books and wait for several months before I will pick it up? Yes. And with movies, I just have one rule. If I liked the trailer, I'm going for it, irrespective of what the reviews. 

Harsh Thakkar  38:04  
That's, that's great. So this was, you know, really a great conversation, I always love to talk to QA professionals working in different companies or different countries, in this case. So it was it was really nice chatting with you. And where can people find you after the show? Where can they connect with you? 

Antiksha Joshi  38:25  
So people can connect with me through LinkedIn. And also I have a company page on it and my own page, it's got my contact details, both email and the phone number more on it. So please feel free to contact me through that. 

Harsh Thakkar  38:39  
And any final thoughts you want to add? Before we wrap up? 

Antiksha Joshi  38:42  
Final thoughts? I think, first and foremost, thank you to you for having me and giving me this chance to talk about quality. So appreciate that. And I think the thoughts is just for organizations as such, I just want to say like, don't be scared of quality, quality is not complicated. It's just common sense. Don't take on too much. Take it slowly and make sure that you have systems that work for you. But don't get pulled in by the hype that's in the market, because someone is doing something, some way will work for you. And you should just blindly go and implement it. No, try and use technology tools that are out there to make the mundane, repetitive tasks of your staff easier, or give more visibility. And that definitely will improve employee engagement, which obviously is really important in today's time to retain people. And as well be up and running with teams change as well. And to the quality people I just want to say don't lose heart. It's the same struggle everywhere. Yeah. Exactly. But I think it's time that we change the narrative when we will take that first step. think of yourselves as collaborators. And not as people sitting on the outside, even though there may be moments when you will be made to feel that. So brush up on those communication skills. And think work as a team, show that you're willing to work as a team. And you'll see that the response will be really amazing from people who are not in quality. 

Harsh Thakkar  40:24  
Well said, Yeah, thanks. Thank you so much. This was really a great conversation. I had fun. And thanks for coming to the show. And wish you all the best with all the client projects and all the stuff that you're doing with your consulting firm. 

Antiksha Joshi  40:39  
Thank you Harsh, it was really nice to be on the show. I hope you make it to Australia, even if it's for a holiday and more for work or anything. But yeah, thank you so much. 

Harsh Thakkar  40:50  
Thank you. This Podcast is really great as I've had talked to so many people in different countries. So if I travel anywhere, I don't think I'm going to have any problems, you know, trying to find people to get together with Yeah, that's great. All right. Thank you. 

Antiksha Joshi  41:06  
Thank you. 

Harsh Thakkar  41:06  
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